>> this week could be merry mandolin congress, george santos, as he's once again facing a vote for his expulsion. it will be the third vote to expel the new york congressman since you took office lessons a year ago. the first since the house ethics committee released the damning report detailing a wide range of abuse fraudulent contact by santos for using campaign funds for things like botox and onlyfans. that's on top of federal charges for identity crafton wire fraud. the house suspected to begin debating this resolution tomorrow, with final votes had for friday. we will be keeping a close eye on all of it. and that is tonight reidout. all in with chris hayes starts right now. wit h chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on all in.

>> nikki haley, ambassador to the united nations, has been very special to me. >> that the republican primary just become an actual race? >> we're all happy for you in one way but we would hate to lose. >> tonight, big money's big bat nikki haley could defeat donald trump. >> you've been fantastic. you're my friend, and on behalf of the country, i want to thank you for a great job. >> then, the latest fascist threat from the republican front-runner against his critics here at an msnbc. and then, a return to the republican house circus. >> did you just say that the whistleblower, or the informant is now missing? >> congressman jamie raskin on how hunter biden called james comer's bluff, and what we are learning about negotiations for an extension of the truce as 16 more hostages are released by hamas. when all in starts, right now. good evening from new york.

i'm chris hayes. we're under 50 days from now iowa caucus, republican primary voters, their first shot to choose a presidential nominee. last time most of the country went to the polls, after the big national election, the 2022 midterm elections, a little over a year ago, and if you might remember, republicans delivered a pretty shocking underperformance in those elections. it was an empty performance those particularly pronounced among the trump aligned candidates. we saw this early in that election night and it just kept going. the kari lake in arizona e and the herschel walker and the tv doctor mehmet oz in pennsylvania. in short, modulus to begin 2022. as a result at the time there was a real feeling that people understood that on trump's political potency had waned, that he was an albatross, and arago, would be a good idea to get someone new as a republican standard bearer in this standard bearing contest. and we might be in for a competitive republican primary in 20 23 to 24.

that's why you saw some candidates decide to run against donald trump earlier this year. of course now with the benefit of hindsight, things have not really turned out that way. , florida governor ron desantis who was of course widely seen as the most viable alternative to trump has delivered one of the worst campaign performances of all-time. truly one of the most stunning cash burning operations in recent american politics. at the start of this year, santos was at least feasibly competitive with trump. by the time he announced in late may, much later than many observers thought he should, trump had opened up about a third 30-point lead in the polling average. in that time the desantis campaign, affiliated packs, has spent nearly $50 million on an advertising only see to has his numbers sink lower, to near single digits, while trump's lead widened to about 45 points. you're going in the wrong direction, ron. i think it's fair to say that

this is not where florida governor ron desantis wanted to pick up. i think it has dawned on a lot non-trump loving parts of the republican party, and there are those elements, but there is one last chance, 50 days out from iowa, one last chance for competitive primary, barring for some huge unforeseen circumstance. given that the table as it is set right now, one last chance to have it out over the future of what the party, a voter can party, and whether it's going to fully align itself behind the man who wants to end american democracy and whether the republican party is gonna continue to be a party that's woven into the fabric of the constitutional republic. that's the choice for the party. and the way to make that happen will be a one-on-one contest between trump and former south carolina governor and u.n. in bassett are, nikki haley. anything other than complete consolidation of the non trump forces in the race are only going to help trump by splitting them. i suspect that is at least partly why we see former vice

president mike pence and south carolina senator tim scott suspend their campaigns, fairly abruptly, actually. maybe other republicans in the race, not named nikki haley, will take the lead. it's clearly on a majority view of primary voting republicans. but there is definitely a contingent of the republican party that would like to, if they could, they like to move off of trump. and these folks are not particularly well represented anymore. the conservative media is basically filling the tank for maga, most of the never trump republicans have become parts of the democratic party coalition, especially in the biden era. so there really is no one out there in the world who speaks for this group of people. they really do exist. there really are literally millions of them. they show up in polling. around 20% of the republican party disapproves of donald trump. for these people who don't like the democrats, they're not

democrats, theirnservatives, but who also don't like trump, nikki haley appeals appears to be their best shot. we've seen a succession of headlines in just the past few days the demonstrate -- haley'sfiliated super pac spent almost $9 million this month, nearly as much as both trump and desantis's packs combined and you've got jamie dimon the billionaire ceo of jpmorgan chase who has been talking up haley to anyone who will listen including during an event earlier today. >> i did come out make a nice statement about nikki haley. he did. very liberal democrat and i urge h t help nikki hay as well. decide on the republican side might be a bit of the trump. >> also it was reported by america's prosperity, the infamous arm of the koch network would be no backing haley as well, providing access to -- the political network run by

charles koch, one of those powerful men in the, earth as has had one almost a malignant influence on america. life in one way it's unlimited amounts of untraceable money backing things like the tea party paved the way for donald trump, brought us to the moment wherein. and also, just be absolutely fair, i don't like, at all, nikki haley's politics. i think it would be a bad thing for the country if she were elected president. she would pursue a plan that would negatively impact americans. and also i don't think nikki haley would prove to be an existential threat to the very framework of our representative democracy like donald trump clearly would be and is. listen to her the first primary debate, dressing down vivek ramaswamy over ukraine. >> ukraine is a front line of defense. putin has said, if russia, once russia takes ukraine, poland or the baltics are next. that's a world war.

we're trying to prevent war. look at what putin did today. he killed prigozhin. when i was at the u.n., the russian ambassador suddenly died. this guy is a murderer. and you are choosing a murderer or a over a pro american [applause] -- >> doesn't sound crazy. it's sort of, i don't know, normal american foreign policy. something even democrats have. in politics, at least in my view, particularly these days, it's often the lesser of two evils. it's about harm reduction. sometimes even it's about choosing the battle that's cataclysmic. from that perspective it's undoubtedly a good thing but code network is making this, a positive thing that a wall street executives are telling people they should back haley for the good of the country. it's to the benefit of american democracy for there to be a strong faction of the republican party, one of the two major ones we have, committed to defeating donald

trump. to be clear, they have a strong case to make. it's been fairly well shown, now, that haley would be a strong general election candidate. the polling reliably shows us that. in lots of polls she's the one canada point above trump in head to heads. you get the experience, foreign policy experience, more cynically, polls show she is a formidable nominee. recent poll from -- shows haley beating biden by -- this also poetic justice of play. here's the reality. nominating anyone other than donald trump would almost certainly rip the party is under. it might even break it in its current name and form. trump within set himself to the goal of the total destruction of the republican party, just like he did against as american as a whole, should they nominate anyone other than him. the fact of the matter is, that's probably what the republican party deserves. if i'm writing the script here,

it could be destroyed by the monster that enabled for the better part of a decade. nikki haley included, as you know from the opening. and they all know that threat hangs over them. so anyone who takes up the effort to defeat trump, to really go after, to try to beat him in this republican primary anyway deserves support. i'm joined now by a staffer of the lantern, author of a new book the trajectory of the republican party, a reckoning. i was thinking about your book, your excellent book today, and i was thinking about the idea of a lack of representation of, literally, i would say tens of millions of non-trump republican voters. these are not like, i hate that guy, i will climb over broken glass to get rid of him, but they are also not like going to rallies and they're also not like i love him. i love everything about him. they're like as, i really don't like the guy. i'm a republican. i would like someone else.

there are tens of millions of those people. if someone could actually get them together. >> no question, and i think the numbers even bigger than that 20% you showed earlier. that's 20% that has an unfavorable view of donald trump in a lot of republicans would like to move on from donald trump. even if they'll vote for him and even if he'll defend him in conversations from time to time, but we don't talk about them and there's a couple of reasons for that. one, you noted in the, top the conservative media has gone full maga. there is no representation for the non-trump republican voice anymore. mitt romney, who would, i, think comfortably fit in the kind of conservative anti trump world that doesn't exist, he doesn't get any voice on fox news or conservative talk radio. people like him don't get invited on anymore. so there is no voice for them. nikki haley represents a lot of them. i sat in on a republican focus groups earlier this year, and

what was interesting wise, this is in the midst of the desantis boomer. there are lot of people to hear bout how much they light desantis, and he's the guy to go with if you don't like trump. but when nikki haley came up, it was almost all positive comments. what i will say, as most of them, said she would make a great running mate. so they weren't ready to go to her at that point but they liked her. i think that's a good starting point for someone like haley. >> the thing is, i guess my feeling about this, and again, a dog in the fight and the partisan sense about the republican party, in the inter factional dispute, is that i just think people shouldn't give up. there's a little bit of this fatalism. you see this fatalism time and time again for republicans where it's like here we go. . who keep added, guys. this is important stuff.

>> well, we in the media also, i think, sometimes contribute to that. i have to say, when i have been asked over the last three years, what are the chances of donald trump losing, again and again i'll say oh i don't know i doubted. i think it's because we were all burned from that 2016 experience of competently predicting that he wouldn't win and then he did. . some things have to happen. the field has to narrow. the establishment has to choose nikki haley to get behind. or but it's happening. i think that one thing that is happening now that we have to keep our eye on is, a ray of backers for nikki haley, you notice some of them at the top, charles koch, jeremy diamond, mitt romney's former chief fundraiser spencer zwick recently joined the nikki haley campaign. these people represent almost the last stand of the old republican establishment. it's almost like all the people

who want to spare the party from a long term commitment to trumpian politics are making one last go of it. and when i think would be good and healthy for the party, and frankly, healthy for the country, is if more country joined in more people saw this as kind of what it is, which, is i think, an existential battle for the republican party. you might be right that donald trump, if he loses the nomination will dedicate his life to distraught destroying the gop. i think that's possible. i also think it's possible he won't succeed. but my point is, if you just give up -- then you have nothing to point to when the ruinous consequences of his nomination and possible election play out. >> that's my point here. it's not a predictive point. i think that's part of what has made this here. if you're trying to like bet money, if you're trying to say

it's much more likely donald trump will be the nominee. i think we all agree with that. but that's a different. the football metaphor is, you've got the ball down to score five minutes. get out there. start throwing some passes. run the know-how dull. let's go. let's give it a shot. stranger things have happened. >> and maybe this is the hail mary. rallying around nikki haley 47 days before the iowa caucuses is the hail mary passed of the establishment needs. but it's worth making the pass. you're totally right about that. i think also, one more note, this country needs to healthy political parties. i don't the nominating nikki haley will make the republican party healthy necessarily, but it will make it a lot less unhealthy than if donald trump wins the don nomination again. i think that's worth fighting for. >> you can't have a durable two party system system in which one of the two parties are not committed to the continuation of a peaceful transition of power and the constitutional

republic. because you can't win every election. so what do you need is to parties that both buy into that. we were both who in the peaceful transmission of power, we don't we buy into the basics of this. if one of those is in the midst of placing itself outside of that, that's perilous as it gets. >> what i will say is, i'm not lobbying for nikki haley's nomination. i don't have a dog in this fight either. i'm a journalist. but what i will say is that i have heard over the last seven years at this point republican sources of mine in the establishment, in this world that we've been talking about, complain and tell me how terrible trump is and what has happened to my party. i've heard it for years at this point. i think that if this is your position, it is time to take the fight to donald trump. you have to make that case publicly. and i think it's only now it's starting to happen and that's a

healthy thing for the country. >> mckay coppins, as always, a pleasure sir. thank you very. much after years of accusations hunter biden was finally within their grasp. so white and house republicans chicken out of the hearing they have been demanding? next. have been demanding? next next >> i work hard, and i want my money to work hard too. so, i use my freedom unlimited card. earning on my favorite soup. aaaaaah. got it. earning on that éclair. don't touch it, don't touch it yet. let me get the big one. nope. -this one? -nope. -this one? -yes. no. what? the big one. they're all the same size. wait! lemme get 'em all. i'm gonna get 'em all! earn big with chase freedom unlimited.

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wireless that works for you. >> if you've not been watching it's not just possible, it's happening. fox news, you may not be aware of the drama and intrigue day in the republican allies have g and up around the presidents son, hunter biden. you should know that while

you've been following news on all kinds of subjects, the fox cinematic universe has been attacking president biden and his son all day long, day in, and day out. this line of attack could infuriate b or b's theory be effective, but they are working with bad material. they keep running into absolutely humiliating dead ends. now they have hit perhaps the most humiliating one yet. the right-wing campaign against hunter biden has been going on for years, even before joe biden took office. biden's political opponents seized on his sons well-known and wild in alleged personal problems, including his struggle with addiction, as well as his foreign business dealings. a lot of people thought they were not great. in an attempt to disparage the president. they built up a whole narrative about the biden crime family and promised that hunter was the key no brain. amidst the scrutiny hundred disclosed in the summer of 2020 that he was under investigation by justice department related to his tax affairs.

a pubca than complain the doj was not charging biden until they did indict him this year on gun charges related to his drug use. to be clear, these are charges that many prosecutors and the defense lawyers who practice in the federal bars say would never be brought against someone without that last name. this is a special case. republicans were also incensed by the lack of the special counsel on the case, that is, until attorney general merrick garland appointed a special counsel in august. this year house republicans also launched their own probe into the biden family held by james comer of kentucky. they expand that. along with two other committees in september. comer and his teams have now spent months putting in a district state steady stream of anti biden contact, doing everything they can to promote an impeachment story, impeachment new segments on fox, sure short of voting on impeachment because, well, they don't have enough support to

pass that. of course a large part of what is driving all of this is a revenge for the two impeachments of donald trump. trump has ordered them to impeach joe biden and we know that he they do what he orders them to do. trump wants to even the score, facts be dammed. they haven't uncovered any evidence to support impeachment of joe biden, but the commite on are some peña-ing hunter. someone in hunter biden were closed-door transcribed interview. now, hunter biden has called their bluff. yesterday, through his lawyer, hunter biden told republicans, sure, all come in to talk to you. not just that, i will come in and testify, live, in public, before the whole committee. you know, you would think that would be precisely the thought of dramatic confrontational moment republicans have been waiting for. they're trying to produce cable news for the friends over at fox after all. but instead of declaring victory and putting --

dave comer just folded, claiming a public hearing would not suffice. >> we need to ask him hundreds of questions. if he comes in for one hearing with 24 members having five minutes each to ask questions, with the democrats yelling and screaming like they do every hearing, we probably would get about 30 to 35 questions in. >> after years building up his climactic moment, the opportunity to grill hunter biden under oath and finally country, republicans retreated from their own battle? this has to be the most humiliating loss for james comer yet. a judge was democratic counterpart on the oversight committee, ranking member jamie raskin, next. raskin, next >> adding vraylar to an antidepressant... is clinically proven to help relieve overall depression symptoms... ...better than an antidepressant alone. and in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. elderly dementia patients have increased

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today on the matter that the chairman declared his top priority, the crusade to find evidence of wrongdoing by president biden. but now the majority long promised star witness turns out to be a fugitive from american justice. like every other eight tamped to contact a scandal about president biden, this one is a complete and total bust. >> democratic congressman jere jamie raskin, ranking member of the oversight committee, now is calling out his republican colleagues for epic humiliation for chairman james comer rejected an opportunity to question hunter biden publicly. congressman jamie raskin joins

me now. congressman, were you surprised by comer not wanting to go through a big showy public hearing? >> well, on the one hand i was not surprised because chairman comer and his staff understand the cupboard is empty. they've been at this for ten months and they know there is nothing there. they're wild goose chase has produced no geese at all. but i was surprised in this sense. i thought that word would leak out quickly and all the members of the republican side would be very excited because this was the holy grail and now they would have their opportunity to offer their devastating cross-examination of hunter biden. marjorie taylor greene would finally get to nail him about all the pornographic pictures and so on and so forth but the

cooler heads understood there is nothing there that would've exposed all of them to a great humiliation and this having the pulpit was this confession, that there is nothing there. >> that understanding, i think, by comer and other folks, speaks to the basic dynamic, as i see it. i'd like to hear what you think. they don't have the votes. they don't have the votes. the reason they don't have the votes is because they haven't turned up evidence of any impeachable crimes, and there's enough swing voters in that caucus who don't want to walk the plank and won't vote for this because some of them think it would be against, basically their oath and principles. but they have to keep producing impeachment content. so they get this weird thing where they have to make impeachment content without actually impeaching, which is the strain kind of world your committee is ian. >> i think that you've got it right. donald trump wants tit-for-tat.

whatever happened to him, it happened to his people, has got to happen to biden and his people. they're trying to destroy the constitutional meaning of impeachment so it's just part of the normal political push and pull. because steve bannon was held in contempt well they've got to hold hunter biden in contempt but they can't do that without the vote to actually launch an impeachment inquiry, which they can't get because they've got serious former prosecutors on the republican side like can buck who says you guys don't have anything. there is not a shred of evidence supporting the existence of an offense, much less unimpeachable one. >> i guess my question, is is it sustainable for them to keep spinning their wheels and producing enough stuff for the kind of content meal. or is there any definitive moment, i saw reported that mike johnson met with some of the frontline members as in his

term as speaker and said maybe we don't have to do this impeachment thing. does it keep going like this? >> well, part of it is how gullible is the fox news audience. he has gone on fox business news before and said i've gotten 100 percent of everything i have asked for in the subpoenas, 100 percent compliance, and now they're talking about maybe they'll just impeach joe biden for noncompliance, for obstruction, which is ridiculous. so i don't know what we're they're going to take it from here. a lot of it will turn on what donald trump wants. but the other thing is they have no program for the country. there is nothing they can agree on. last talk a lot about abortion. the cats got their tone now they realize we're in a pro-choice country and people reject their theocratic agenda. i guess the last thing that they are trying to talk about is the border. but there is not really much of

any substance to any political program there. that would suggest they will just keep on despite the embarrassment of this theater of the absurd. >> they also get 218 votes in their own caucus, to be clear. they cannot get to whip 2 to 18 on a border bill because they have too many crazies over there. speaking of the republican caucus, i had you on the last time, after the last vote, to expel congressman george santos from congress. the constitution sets the bar at two thirds 66%, you voted against expelling him. you said you would you thought it would be an abrogation of the process to do so, without some for the process. he's been indicted but there's an ethics committee report playing out. it is going to be another vote this week. there's a damning ethics committee report. where are you on sandals? now >> i plan to vote yes. the logic for my vote last time simply this, we don't want to set a precedent where people

are being expelled without either criminal conviction in federal or state court or on ethics finding that they have engaged in serious myths conduct that we can judge once we are able to review the report. that report came out. it was unanimous. it's extremely damning about the way he stole campaign donors money for personal purposes, whether it's trips to las vegas or botox and so on. just outrageous abuse of the campaign process, outrageous lies being told to the voters. the only argument i can torture out for him now is that all of the lies he told, which he certainly did tell, and the evidence is overwhelming, do not add up to don trump's big lie, which still a majority of the republican caucus stands by. >> that's true. >> that's not a an argument that should move a democrat. >> if we're voting earlier, if he gets a pass. congressman jamie raskin, thank

you very much. still ahead, angry man yells at tv. the latest trump threat against msnbc, why it's different. don't go away. s different. don't go away. don't go away. >> get it with boost infinite, and send your favorite people to a wireless wonderland of endless delight where they'll unwrap the joy of the latest iphone year, after year, after year. gift the titanium iphone 15 pro. enjoy unlimited wireless and the latest iphone every year for $60 a month. boost infinite. thursday night football on prime. it's on. welcome to thursday night football. nfc contenders collide,

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night, we clearly something he saw her prompted trump to do what he always does, rant angrily on social media. this was his post in which he attacks msnbc. he misunderstands the difference between broadcast and cable, attacks the ceo of our parent company and says, our so-called government should come down on hard on them and make them pay for the illegal political activity. much more to come, watch. now, these attacks are not new territory for trump. it's easy to get bored with his whining. i certainly am. but i will say, again, in the theme of our coverage here so far, as we head into this election, take this seriously. he's telling you what he wants to do. a man who wants to take power back, telling you what his policy a news organizations he doesn't like is. our so-called government should come down on them hard and make them pay for their illegal political activity. and here's the thing. we have a first amendment, yes checks and balances, but without a determined enough

government in the right henchmen in place, do you think that trump's whining cannot turn into real punitive action? brian stelter, a media reporter in special correspondent for vanity fair, author of a new book network of lies, the epic saga of fox news, little trump, and the battle for american democracy, out now, and he joins me now. part of what jumped out to me here was the idea of using the power of the state against your, against a media outlet you, it is covering you in a way that you don't like, is not an abstract idea. in fact, there is some precedent here with cnn when there was an at&t merger on the table, with time warner, the department of justice intervened in. >> i worked at cnn at the time. before the election in 2016, donald trump said on the campaign trail that he would try to stop the deal from happening, stop a&t from buying time warner. then once he was elected, and once the deal is progressing,

through the government regulatory system, the trump doj tried to block it. delayed by more than the. year at&t center not to the president, stood up to the doj, was actually willing to fight. they were able to win in court and the murder happened. but at great cost. it delayed a t indies battle against netflix on the streaming wars. there's a significant amount of evidence that donald trump, behind the scenes, was trying to punish at f owning cnn. >> this isn't video at the what if. here's the new yorker reporting on this, jen mayer talking about gary cohen in a meeting, trump called cohen to the office and he said it exasperations to john kelly chief of staff i've been telling cohn to get this, violently happens, i mentioned 50 times, i want that deal blocked. >> right, i want that deal blocked. it was also on the phone at the time, with rupert murdoch, talking about murdaugh about this. rupert murdoch calls the at&t

ceo and says hey, you want to get the cnn back? all by cnn from new. which i interpreted at the time was a favor to trump, to try and take cnn and put it in the cozy trump. thing >> here's what i think is key about the story, and understanding democratic decline, because we've seen it in other countries. people of at&t were like, we're not going to roll over. >> that's right. >> basically, for whatever reason, they stood up to trump. they stood up to her mother it is their principles, the dollars that play, whatever business, they said no. i think we've seen in other countries is an erosion of that whereby you start to see people, the highest echelons of the society, start to play ball, and start to be kept. >> i've covered this comcast for nearly 20 years. i know the executives in philly, they don't get rattled by a truth social post. [laughs] they defended nbc for as long as i've owned it. we are seeing this with other media companies, and as you said, cnn -- hungary, turkey, when the state comes in and takes regulatory

action, takes legal action, uses an irs, a branch of the government to punish a media company, and sometimes you take that media company off the playing field. it is a very real thing. >> that squeeze, to be clear, yes, the first amendment is here. the way the squeezes worked in places like -- i don't think there is robust democracies as america, but when they started, the irs now has opened a case on your back taxes, or new legislation that regulates and duties that deliver an item to more than 10 million households every day. those are the newspapers. lo and behold, you are paying phones and fees, and someone comes along and says, why don't i buy that from? you rupert murdoch, why don't i take it off your hands? that is a buddy of the president. >> comcast is an infrastructure company, broadband, tens and millions of others. you could imagine those trump could try to turn the screws. it's not just comcast. >> it is any large -- >> still cnn, all these players. on one level, trump's post is just the weather. stormy today, sunny tomorrow.

you will write about someone else tomorrow. on another level, a severe thunderstorm warning. it is a warning about what he will do if he regains power. that's why i think it is more notable than when he was in power and try to punish at&t, or in power and try to punish the washington post, or jeff bezos. back then, he would do and save what caught a cd, and no one would care. the stock would go up that day. it was meaningless. this time, as a campaign promise he's making to his voters. >> he made one last time on cnn, and that merger, and he tried to hold to it. brian stelter, always good to have you. thank you so much. still to come after nearly a week without fighting in israel, looming question remains, what happens next? former israeli minister of justice joins me right here in the studio, next. , next hiv treatment for some adults. no other complete hiv pill uses fewer medicines to help keep you undetectable than dovato. detect this: most hiv pills contain 3 or 4 medicines. dovato is as effective with just 2. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop dovato

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positive israel-hamas war, and brought the release of 16 more hostages held by hamas, including four thai nationals, agricultural workers who were adept on october 7th. one american is really dual citizen, a 49 mother of three, taken hostage with her husband from their home on october 7th. her husband, you should know, remains in captivity. the art is a guide to the holocaust museum in jerusalem. president biden announced hurriedly's earlier today. >> they are safe in egypt, liat crossed the border. i talked with her mother and

father. they are appreciative, things are moving well. she will soon be home with her three children. >> also today, hamas said three israeli hostages, a mother and two young children, four-year-old, and a ten month old are dead, having been killed in an israeli bombing. these early military says it's looking into this inquiry. tonight, israel released 30 palestinians who were held in military detention, 16 children, and 14 women according to the foreign minister of qatar. with almost a week pause in the war, palestinians in gaza are starting to get some trucks carrying humanitarian aid through the rafah crossing in egypt. the war is on pause in gaza, there continues to be violence in the west bank where hamas does not rule. palestinian health ministry reporting two boys, an eight-year-old and 15 year old, who you see here being worn by a relative, were killed by israeli military today. israeli military did not address the killing of the two boys, but said, during the military operation, some people threw explosive devices towards soldiers who responded with

gunfire. nbc news has not independently confirmed these reports. tonight, the pause in the war between israel and hamas is due to expire in just a few hours. the question is, whether it will be extended to allow for the release of more israeli hostages and palestinian detainees, and for the continued delivery of more aid to palestinians in gaza. ayelet shaked it's a former minister of the interior and minister of justice for israel, and she joins me now. great to have you here. thank you. >> good evening. >> with the deadline now approaching, your position, as someone who served in the israeli government for, in several positions, through the years, on whether you would like to see this continue. >> i think all people want to see the war continue because -- >> the troops? >> the pause -- >> whatever you want to call it. >> this is a cease-fire, supposedly. we have a condition. if the hamas agrees to release

the women, then we are willing to take one or two more days of the pause. it's very important for us to take out the women from there because they did horrible atrocities to women on october 7th. i can give you, and i will tell you about a testimony that the police took from one girl at a music festival on october 7th. she saw them raping a girl, and they transferred her from one tourist to another where she was bleeding. they cut her breast, and played with it. and while raping her, they shot her in the head. this is one testimony out of some horrible atrocities and rape they did to our women. >> you want to get them out?

>> we want to get them out -- >> it seems like the only thing that has produced in this horrible period, amidst the atrocities, the only thing that has really produced, a set of people being released to freedom has been this truce of the last few days. >> this is true. this is why we're willing to continue, but we want our women back. we want to take them out of their, out of those monsters hands. it is now three hours, hamas has three hours to decide whether they agreed to release that women or not. if not, we will continue the war. >> reporting is really officials say hamas proposed by a mediators release that's -- not women and children. israeli officials say that hamas doesn't produce a list, the fighting will resume. >> it's true. >> there is a consensus in israel the roar has to continue -- i've seen that in all the polling i've seen. it's a question of what comes

after. people say hamas must be destroyed -- >> yes, it must. >> but then, okay, then what? there is some who said, maybe palestinian authority can be the governing entity -- >> they can't. >> so, i know you -- >> they can because they're educated for hate. you know -- >> but they're not hamas? >> they're not, but they're educated for hate -- >> who -- >> they are -- so they can't. >> who? >> what we want to do is eliminate hamas. then to have a buffer zone in order to keep our villages safe. and then there should be international allies from countries like egypt, the uae, that will come and manage the lives for a few years. we need to do do unification in order to -- >> what does that mean?

>> denazification. right now, the children from the age, since they're born, we saw it in with kindergartens, we saw it in the school, they're being educated to slaughter jews. this is how they're being educated -- >> with all due respect, let me say this. whether that is true or -- not >> it's true. you can't argue on the facts. we saw it in their schools -- >> there are -- >> ten or 15,000 people have died. there have been children who have died. this is not a dispute -- >> we didn't start this war. >> i know. my question to you is, what i hear from you is not joe biden says we have to restart the two-state solution. what i hear from you and most of israeli political leaders in the senate, coalition government, no hamas, no p.a., maybe an international coalition, and we will manage the occupation in perpetuity, and saw the west bank, and that's, it and you will deal with that. >> in gaza, we are not there,

you know? we disengaged from gaza in 2005. we gave them the keys, do whatever you want, and this is what they did. they chose to establish a terrorist state. we are not going to let it happen again. >> what, then? you are saying is -- millions of people are going to have zero self determination. >> first of all, we should manage the security, the idf will get in and out whenever needed. regarding the civil lives, for a few years, after hamas will be eliminated, i hope that there will be some international coalition that can handle the gaza strip. there are stronger countries that could take responsibility for a few years. >> this, the promise of -- i've heard you say this in previous interviews, the promise of the netanyahu government, the bennett government, that you were a part of as well, we could manage the conflict. we could manage the conflict.

i even heard you say the conflict will never end. we could manage it. that is what you used. the worst -- since the holocaust happened under the policy of managing the conflict. the worst mass slaughter of jews in this world since world war ii happened. doesn't that say something about the policy of managing the conflict? >> it says that we can't let them do whatever they want, and we can't keep our -- we can't give up on our security. in some area, there -- you call it the west bank, for our viewers, the reason that abu mazen is still in power is because the idf is there. in gaza, the idf stepped back in 2005. we are not going to do this mistake again. >> okay. we will see. i hope t